The Myth of Passive Income: Marc Pitman's Candid Take on 20+ Years in Nonprofit Consulting

Written By cindy wagman

“It's still 22 years in... I would never trade my life for [anything], I'm so grateful for the risks that we've taken in life we've chosen, but it is still a hard slog. Every sale you have to earn. The whole passive revenue thing is a myth... you have to be active to make it passive, so it's not passive." - Marc Pitman

The Myth of Passive Income: Marc Pitman's Candid Take on 20+ Years in Nonprofit Consulting

Marc Pitman is a DELIGHT. The CEO of Concord Leadership Group joined us to spill all the tea on what it actually takes to keep a consulting practice alive and thriving for over two decades.

Marc took us on his journey from bow-tie-wearing "Fundraising Coach" to running multiple brands under his company umbrella. And yes, we finally got him to admit the truth about "passive income" (spoiler alert: it's completely made up!).

The best part? Marc totally opened up about the messy reality behind his business evolution. From confessing how weird it was to bring his wife into the business (there were pouts involved, folks) to the surprising revelation that even after a TWENTY-YEAR career, he still doesn't have predictable revenue forecasting down pat. Stars – they're just like us!

If you've ever felt like everyone else has it figured out while you're still flying by the seat of your pants, this episode will make you feel SO MUCH BETTER. Marc's old-school approach to marketing (dude literally picks up the phone and calls people every day) combined with his willingness to evolve makes for a masterclass in consulting longevity.

Highlights:

  • The "Jeremy Bearimy" approach to marketing: Marc focuses on activities he can control (like making daily phone calls) and trusts that business will come—but not in the linear, trackable way modern marketing promises

  • Audience building then and now: From early blogging in 2003 to navigating today's "walled-off" social platforms, Marc shares how he's consistently adapted his approach while maintaining his core focus on serving first

  • Overcoming the comparison trap: Marc explains how he stops himself from second-guessing content when he sees others covering similar topics, and how finding your unique voice matters more than originality

  • The personal brand revelation: Despite creating separate mission statements and core values, Marc realized that his business was fundamentally a personality brand—and how that affected bringing his wife into the company.

  • The consulting long game: Even with multiple revenue streams (speaking, coaching, books, etc.), Marc shares that the goal isn't to sell the business but to be "used up" when he dies—living up to all the potential entrusted to him.

Timestamp summary: 

  • [00:02:10] Introduction to Marc Pitman, CEO of Concord Leadership Group and the blog fundraisingcoach.com

  • [00:02:53] Marc's consulting journey began in 1999 with his first talk in Manhattan on alumni relations

  • [00:04:36] Overview of Marc's current business structure: Fundraising Coach (since 2003), The Nonprofit Academy (owned for 10 years), and Concord Leadership Group (boutique training and coaching)

  • [00:05:51] Revenue breakdown: approximately 40% speaking, 40% coaching, and 20% a mix of book sales, Nonprofit Academy memberships, and leadership coach certification

  • [00:07:46] Marc discusses working with his wife in the business - how she's moved from behind-the-scenes to being a visible part of the company

  • [00:09:41] Reflecting on the personal brand nature of his business, despite his attempts to separate himself from the brand

  • [00:10:47] Marc shares a story about the challenges of letting go of control when his wife suggested improvements to their coach certification program

  • [00:13:02] Discussion about audience building - how Marc started blogging in 1999 and his approach to creating content that helps others rather than solely promoting himself

  • [00:15:14] How audience building has changed over the years, from the "sweet period" of social media to today's more fragmented digital landscape

  • [00:16:16] Marc's approach to dealing with imposter syndrome when seeing others publish similar content

  • [00:18:01] Strategies for cutting through noise and staying focused on your own message rather than following others' business models

  • [00:19:44] The importance of making regular outreach calls and how sales activities directly affect new business opportunities

  • [00:21:15] Rapid fire questions: favorite nonprofit conference (Nonprofit Storytelling Conference), the origin of Marc's bow tie style, and advice for aspiring speakers

  • [00:24:26] Discussion about the effectiveness of cold calling in today's business environment

  • [00:29:31] The "Jeremy Bearimy" approach to marketing - focusing on what you can control rather than tracking every touchpoint

  • [00:30:06] Content repurposing strategy: using each piece of content at least three ways

  • [00:30:26] The challenge and importance of niching down despite wanting to serve everyone

  • [00:31:52] How developing clarity about your specific audience makes marketing more effective

  • [00:32:46] Marc discusses managing multiple audiences across different products and services

  • [00:34:24] Examples of Marc's different client groups: nonprofit leaders, tech CEOs, and leadership coaching clients

  • [00:36:20] Marc's vision for the future: continuing to help people be their best selves, with a larger focus on certifying coaches

  • [00:38:59] Discussion about the "end game" - Marc's perspective on building a business to sell versus creating lasting impact

  • [00:40:22] Marc's mission: "I want to be used up when I die... I want to have lived up to all the potential that was entrusted to me"

  • [00:42:23] How podcasting has helped Marc connect with prospects and stay relevant with current industry language

  • [00:44:26] Marc's confession: despite 20+ years in business, he still struggles with revenue forecasting and acknowledges that passive income is a myth

  • [00:45:51] The humble brag: Marc shares the story of his first $100K month and how he initially thought it was "the new normal"

  • [00:48:23] Where to find Marc online

Resources Mentioned:

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com

Connect with Marc:

Website: https://marcpitman.com/ 

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcapitman/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching: cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network: fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn: ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jesscampbelloutntiheboons/


TRANSCRIPT:

[00:01:31] Cindy: Hey Jess. Hello. This is another one of those back to back batch recordings. So Jess and I are like, I'm not really saying hi to you again. What are we saying? so yeah, our little small, . Small talk at the beginning is just like our, it's just inside joke.

[00:01:50] Cindy: A funny thing. 

[00:01:51] Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I know it's hard to not make it feel like artificial 'cause we are excited to talk. But it does feel funny when you've done this several times already today. This is the third call we've been on. 

[00:02:02] Cindy: Exactly. But it's so fun. And our next guest, I feel like this has been a long time coming and I don't know why.

[00:02:10] Cindy: Marc we haven't had you on the podcast earlier. That's our mistake. But Marc Pitman, I feel like you are a legend in the sector. and so excited to have you on the podcast. So for those of you who don't know, Marc he's the CEO of Concord Leadership Group and really well known in our sector for the blog fundraising coach.com and, Marc so happy to have you here. Welcome to the show. 

[00:02:38] Marc: So honored to be here. Thank you. 

[00:02:41] Cindy: Oh, called The Legend. 

[00:02:42] Marc: I don't, it's, I don't know if my head's gonna fit into the little Zoom screen. This is amazing.

[00:02:46] Jess: maybe that's a good place to start because not to date anyone here, but how long have you been out at this?

[00:02:53] Marc: I dreamt this as a kid. I wanted to be a nonprofit consultant and coach. I thought that I, Dr. my friends would be every kid's dream. Yeah, exactly. some people were firemen, some people were, police people, whatever. But I was a nonprofit fundraiser. No. I, my first talk in the nonprofit sector was in 1999 where I did a training on alumni relations in Manhattan.

[00:03:12] Marc: So I would say, I don't know, 30, not quite 30 years. Maybe, I don't even know. Math, math is hard. 

[00:03:19] Cindy: I know. I still, we often talk about age and just all the, I'm like. I'm still 20. I'm still 20. It's still the, like the nineties, early two thousands. A hundred percent. my kid is like wearing stuff that we wore in the nineties, right?

[00:03:35] Cindy: Yeah. Yeah. It's, to 

[00:03:36] Marc: me, it's it. I am not old enough at 53 to be able to talk in decades, but I am like, I'm celebrating my 30th anniversary with my wife's like.this, this year and it's just weird 'cause it seems like we just got married a few years ago. 

[00:03:50] Cindy: yeah, we're celebrating 20 this year, so 

[00:03:53] Marc: congratulations.

[00:03:54] Marc: That's so cool. Thanks. I know talking about that. Gosh, I'm 

[00:03:57] Cindy: such a baby next to you too. Just kidding. 

[00:04:01] Jess: We're just the only time I can stay that my whole life than I over here just, selling, celebrating. Lucky number 12. You guys are decades ahead of us. Just kidding. We can talk about marital advice on another one.

[00:04:15] Jess: Yeah.

[00:04:18] Cindy: okay. So Marc tell us what your business is today, because I knows been lots of evolution, but let's start with what you are. And even I feel like you are in the midst of evolution, as you've mentioned to me, offline. So where are you now? And then we'll go from there. 

[00:04:36] Marc: Evolution. Like one of the dangers I think of our career path as consultants or coaches, is that we can constantly evolve and that can really throw off our, the people we're trying to connect with.

[00:04:45] Marc: that's interesting. But right now I'm, CEO of Concord Leadership Group, which is a brand, a group of brands. It's fundraising coach.com, which has been for, since 2003. Serving the nonprofit sector. It's, which is fundraising particularly for nonprofit executives. the, nonprofit academy, which I've been, I've owned for the last 10 years, which is a low cost, high quality CFRE accredited, training program for folks.

[00:05:09] Marc: And, Concord leadership group, which is more of the boutique sort of training and coaching. all of the things that tie it together is I've always been helping leaders with communication and I have, I just happen to be really good at fundraising and I happen to love it. like it gets me giddy and excited, which is weird, I don't know.

[00:05:28] Jess: I don't know about weird, but, especially like these days, it is definitely not for the faint of heart, that's for sure. just We can all understand because this is a podcast going on inside of businesses. Can you give us a bit of a breakdown, like what percentage of your time and resources are spent to one third of the business versus the blog versus the academy?

[00:05:50] Jess: yeah. 

[00:05:51] Marc: What does that 

[00:05:51] Jess: picture look like? 

[00:05:52] Marc: I can't, I don't know. but I do know that it's about, I believe about 40% of my income is speaking. the, about 40% of it is coaching. and, so speaking includes trainings or keynotes. coaching is individual coaching. and then the other 20% is a mix of book sales, nonprofit academy memberships and the, quadrant three leadership coach certification that my wife and I run.

[00:06:15] Marc: And those income streams have evolved over the years too. It used to be a affiliating, 15 years ago affiliate fee income was a percent, a sizable percentage. They haven't done that in a long time, but the certification has definitely taken up a place for that. 

[00:06:29] Cindy: How, what do you want it to look like?

[00:06:31] Cindy: I. 

[00:06:32] Marc: Ooh, that's great. I like the mix and I like what I like about the groups make the group makes sense to me. Most people that knew me as fundraising coach thought I had ditched the nonprofit sector for some reason. but my wife know, knew when I niched in that. 'cause you're supposed to niche, you get known and your niche.

[00:06:49] Marc: It was a good niche and it still is fundraising coach, I registered the domain name. People hadn't done that yet, which was great, but I chose not to trademark the term because I figured a rising tideless all ships and I don't, I have, I do have trademarks now, but I don't like defending them even though that you have to.

[00:07:04] Marc: but my wife knew that I would be seen as a nonprofit guy, not as a leadership guy.when I started going from the budget makers, the board and the executive director to the budget spenders, that's when I noticed a shift in my fundraising coach business. and so Concord Leadership Group was a full expression of what it is.

[00:07:20] Marc: I would love to have some advising clients like I've had, over the years, which is a higher, level of service and a lot of certified, leaders that are either wanting to, to just be better leaders or wanting to continue to grow as consultants. I think that's where I'd like my mix to be. 

[00:07:37] Cindy: Mm.okay.

[00:07:39] Cindy: You mentioned your wife, I know she works with you. tell us who is the business? Who is the team? It's us. It's just the two of you? 

[00:07:46] Marc: Yeah, it's us and we have, we are just starting a podcast called, still Figuring This out. and, it's really, we, she has always been, we've always, we get together 30 years ago to do life together.

[00:07:58] Marc: it is only in the last year and a half or two where she's. Allowed herself to be seen legitimately as doing the work. She was doing work for nonprofit Academy and we never wanted it to be, I was very protective of her not being seen as, oh, just Marc's plus one or something. She's an amazing speaker, amazing coach, amazing leader.

[00:08:16] Marc: So we, have been able to bring that together and I didn't realize how much of a personality brand. My business was for the first 20 plus years, but it was me, even though I had separate core values, separate mission statement, like I was trying to do the diligence stuff. But, she'll, she came in the first year and would ask some very good questions, very helpful.

[00:08:38] Marc: I'm not really into organizational stuff and I'm more into sales and marketing and dreams and visions. she's more of the operations person and she asks great questions and I'd get. Really ticked. It was not pretty. so now I'm able to, in the same meeting, be happy that she's making a deci.

[00:08:57] Marc: Even if I feel I pout a little bit still, I'm almost o almost pout free. I.

[00:09:03] Cindy: if anyone can ignore a pout, it's a spouse. okay. I'm, you haven't 

[00:09:07] Marc: seen my pouts. They're like super pout. No, I'm just kidding. 

[00:09:11] Cindy: if my husband pouts, I like could just kick him out of the room. I'm like, I don't wanna see pout.

[00:09:15] Cindy: All right. I am so curious if you could share examples of that. And I find it so fascinating as well that you didn't really realize you had a personal brand because I've, I think I like. Only associated you with a personal brand. Sure. Also, because this sort of like you had a signature look, you had the bow tie.

[00:09:35] Cindy: I dunno if you're still rocking that. but there you go. that's two questions wrapped in one. Yeah. But, tell, so it was a personal, yeah. 

[00:09:41] Marc: I started studying business and sales and direct marketing at 14. I knew I wanted to have multiple streams of income and I knew that part of it was going to be a personal brand.

[00:09:50] Marc: So it was a personal brand. Somehow in my head I thought it wasn't, but, I knew I was fronting the brand and, so I tried to for 15 years, particularly with the fundraising coach side, with the nonprofit, yeah, the nonprofit side with the bow ties. it was. There was a, a, hard integrity streak in me of I have to always show up the same way.

[00:10:10] Marc: I have to always be what, when I'm on stage, when I'm off stage, people need to see me. I wanna be, 'cause part of it's 'cause I always wanna be authentic and I wanna be credible. And I also, want people to know that they can trust what I'm teaching. Not only because I've done the research, but because I have, because of who I am, I've done my own work to continue to grow and all.

[00:10:30] Marc: so that background, one of the examples is, Three years ago, we started this coach leadership program that Cindy, you and I have talked about where we certify, international Coach Federation, accredited program. And, the, as when you make something, you make it up as you go the first time.

[00:10:47] Marc: and part of you use words like, we're not sure how far the class will get, and I wanna make sure that we, serve this cohort the best. and that was good. Eight cohorts in, we know how it's gonna work. We know the cadence and everything. and so Emily was saying, maybe with the two textbooks we have, maybe we should assign chapters in addition to the other homework we're giving, just to give people a guide about reading this.

[00:11:09] Marc: We can't do that. We, I get all, like all the justification, so I'm very verbose and very quick so I can sound like I'm convincing even though I'm totally making it up on the spot. And I'm saying, we have an obligation to cohort one, that we do the same exact program. And it took me a fair, an embarrassingly long time to realize.

[00:11:28] Marc: Cohort one was making it up as we went. There's no obligation and they weren't ever told that cohort 12 or 36 is gonna have the same exact experience. It's only makes sense that we get better as we keep doing it. So that was one of the silly examples, but it was deeply like offensive, like, how dare you question this, which is, yeah,I marvel at how shallow I am in certain areas where I just come on Pitman.

[00:11:58] Jess: I think we, I think anyone to do this kind of public work has to be like that. so as you're talking about, these different kind of arms of your business, It's not lost on me that a couple things. One, I think there's a, a group of nonprofit con consultants who aspire to do this style of a business.

[00:12:22] Jess: There's a different group of nonprofit consultants who just wanted to do, head down work they work with. A handful of clients a year. And in the year 2025, it is not lost on me How to do your level of work, requires a certain size of an audience and how difficult audience building is.

[00:12:46] Jess: and so I'm just curious, as someone that's been doing this work for several decades, as you mentioned, like what did audience building look like, 10, 15 years ago, and how have you evolved your strategies around audience building present day? 

[00:13:02] Marc: Oh my goodness. I love that. Wellback when there were telephones that were corded in the middle of the house.

[00:13:09] Marc: No. I started my first blog post in 1999, and it didn't occur to me until a few years later that I'd never thought that people weren't going to be searching for me. I don't know why. So there's a, there's an. There's a part like, I don't know what it is. but I had figured people would be searching for me and I didn't want them to find the other Mark Pitman, who was in like B grade movies, like Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, but not that good.

[00:13:31] Marc: He was like into Charles Manson murder Miss Movie or something. So I got our, my domain name. And so I just, I was always a front edge. in the nonprofit, one of the cool things about working in our sector is that to best serve our nonprofits, we don't want to be bleeding cut edge. Cutting edge.

[00:13:46] Marc: We can let the for-profit.take the hits and then we can show what actually works in the nonprofit and we're still way ahead of the curve. and so I was blogging and building. I started blogging my book, ask Without my first book, ask Without Fear. I started blogging, as a discipline. Every Tuesday I would write a chapter or write a part of a chapter, and it started out as an email,

[00:14:08] Marc: thing because I thought email, I can own the email and I want to build an email list and I'd say, study, this is what I was gonna do. It made sense to me. Then I realized, nope, nobody may even ever read it. So I had fundraising coach.com and I started putting it up on this thing called a blog back in 2003.

[00:14:24] Marc: If you look at those early posts, they're very literally my email newsletter, text, plain text. and I wanted to give the whole article so people didn't have to click through to anything, which we've had to change now as well. So what I try to do is try to. I think the audience building that I try to do is I always try to help somebody else as opposed to push my stuff.

[00:14:43] Marc: I am not afraid to push my stuff or give them services that they can help, but I really want it right from their perspective, from the problems that they're dealing with. And I think that definitely makes it more, sticky for people because it's, it cuts through the noise. It's oh. You get it?

[00:14:57] Marc: I'm yes, I'm awake at two in the morning. That's exactly what's happening to me, and I need help. That's what I need help with. but the, I don't, we're in a weird spot because there was a lar, a sweet period of social media where, it was easy to get an audience just by being active, not easy.

[00:15:14] Marc: It was never easy. It was always hard, but it was differently hard. now it seems like things are walled off and there's a lot of, I, I don't agree with a lot of the statements that a lot of the tech. Technical, technological companies are making, so there's ethical issues with being involved in some of these places and plus their own algorithms.

[00:15:30] Marc: so there's all, it's harder to do now and it feels a lot more fragmented. So I'm finding myself 20 years in, 22 years in going back to my email list and trying to be much more committed to, serving the list in ways that are appropriate now, which unfortunately mean people have to click through to things or, because,

[00:15:49] Marc: the, we need, we, it'll be seen as spam if people do not interact with our emails. and that's the hardest thing with our colleagues. Like back 10, 15, 15 years ago, I guess I stopped listening. I stopped reading our colleagues newsletters because I would create something I, schedule it for my Tuesday newsletter and then the next day read, a colleague just wrote something about that and my head is not, I don't know if it's the same with you guys, but my head is not the safest place to be.

[00:16:16] Marc: It's a little toxic. The inner critic is really strong. And I would start second guessing myself about how, wow, who am I to say this? It's somebody else. I'm just parroting somebody else. And I didn't even give them credit, which. I wrote it before I read their stuff. I've gotten off a lot of newsletter lists, but I also now know it's serving them because I wasn't opening them anyway and that was not helping their deliverability.

[00:16:39] Cindy: Okay. I wanna stick with this a little bit more because I think what you said hit a nerve, and I see this come up with a lot of consultants, which is, oh shit, that person just said exactly what I wanted to say. I can't say it. Yeah. And I'm always of the belief like, there's not much we can create new in this sector anymore.

[00:17:01] Cindy: Oh. so I'd love for you to, and we 

[00:17:02] Marc: shouldn't be, exactly. Human beings have not really changed much over the millennia. So Yeah. there's different things that we do that are pretty similar and that's a good news thing. So that's what I try to start a lot of my trainings with. if I, if you hear something new.

[00:17:15] Marc: You probably shouldn't because we have been fairly consistent. The tools have changed, but we're still similar. Anyway, I cut you off. 

[00:17:22] Cindy: no. I wanted to, aside from cutting out some of the noise that's out there, other strategies you've developed to really reinforce that message for yourself because it is hard, especially for people who are ambitious.

[00:17:39] Cindy: You, your business is constantly evolving. It's so easy to watch what other people are doing and whether the message is, oh shit, I, they just said what I said, or, Ooh, that business model is really cool. Maybe I should try that. Maybe you shouldn't, like there's so much noise out there. So how do you do that?

[00:18:01] Marc: I took a webinar class that was like the Evergreen webinar and it was this pressure sales funnel that would get people in and yeah, that was not a model that FE felt. Authentic to me. I did it. Yeah. And I didn't lose money on it, but it wasn't authentic. so two th one, two things triggered when you were saying that.

[00:18:18] Marc: One of them is, what I learned from my first book, every book I've written, I have felt like, who am I? The, it's the Im imposter syndrome. Who am I to say this? Other people have said it before me. my, Surprising Gift of Doubt book. There's a preface in there about privilege because who am I as a cisgender white guy, that has had centuries of systems specifically designed to gimme privilege, writing about leadership.

[00:18:42] Marc: I, and so there, I tried to parse out what I did to make it open, which, spoiler, I hired, or offered to hire 12 different, editors from different lived experiences or orientations. And, had some wonderful conversations and some just really helpful experience with that.there's the, so one aspect of that is trying to, just realize that what I've learned from my books is people hear me, they hear my voice, and they didn't hear it from the other people.

[00:19:10] Marc: And the fact that I can point to the other people gives me the cred, the credibility or the assurance inside the peace of mind of knowing. Hey, I'm introducing them to other people and I think that so much of my career has wanted to be introducing people to others. so with the coach certification, there shouldn't be necessarily another white guy on stage, and there should not be any mantels.

[00:19:29] Marc: It's the 21st century for crying out loud. that's a panel with men. So if people didn't know what a mantle was, but so now I've got a bunch of people that are licensed to give the keynote surprising gift of doubt. and so I can say. I totally agree that you shouldn't have me. but I digress.

[00:19:44] Marc: So the first part of about it is developing a bit of a thick skin or learning that you're saying it differently and just trusting that your voice is speaking at a different octave level or a different resonance and will attract a different group of people. Going back to the audience building, one of the things I'm big on is picking up the phone.

[00:20:00] Marc: and so some of the best, the people that have been the most, I've had people with me all 20 years, and remembering when they first introduced themselves to me or where they first get introduced to me at a conference. but I like, picking up the phone call and, picking up the phone and calling people my database if I have their number.

[00:20:18] Marc: and just saying, Hey, Marc Pitman, what? And then maybe what are the top three to five things that bug you the most about leadership? just checking or just, you've been on my list a long time. Wanna see how you're doing? What could we do to serve you better? Every day I'm making sales calls and some of those are internal, cultivation, and that I think frustrates some new fundraising folks, new fundraising consultants, because I had somebody who's, that we all know.

[00:20:42] Marc: Get really frustrated with me because she said, you've been at this 20 years, shouldn't it be all referral based by now? And my response was, it was all referral based at one point, and then the referral stopped and I didn't know what to do to get them coming back in. So I decided that I like to have, be in control of some of the messaging and for me doing some sort of sales outreach every day, preferably phone calls is the, is has been really helpful.

 

[00:21:11] Jess: AlrighMarcrk, we are back for another rapid fire questions. You ready to play? 

[00:21:15] Marc: Yes, please. 

[00:21:17] Jess: Alright. As someone who has spoken at a many nonprofit conferences, which is your favorite and why? 

[00:21:25] Marc: Oh my goodness. That's like saying which of my favorite children, you have them, but you're not supposed to say.

[00:21:31] Marc: what popped into mind was the nonprofit Storytelling Conference, which is when I get to co-present co-produce for the last decade. And I love the way we serve the audience there and talking to audience members. I just love how much care and growth the experience in those days together. 

[00:21:47] Jess: Wonderful.

[00:21:47] Jess: I will be there this year. Yay. What inspired the bow tie? 

[00:21:53] Marc: Oh, that was, I, it turns out, and it was, I thought it was my first day of school. My dad went to, went through a very small bow tie phase, apparently in the seventies with clipon velo stuff. And so I went to school and I wore a bow tie and I, 'cause I was going out of the house and I was going to my work.

[00:22:10] Marc: and it was kindergarten. My parents were mortified, but I did it. I found out I had bow ties as early as three years old.so there was, I just liked that, I liked bow ties anyway, and everybody wears a neck tie, but you can, like when I said I was the guy with glasses, a beard and a bow tie as a fundraiser, people knew who it was.

[00:22:28] Marc: Oh, okay. I'll, even though I lived in New England. So I love the notoriety and I, it's an amazingly versatile wardrobe. Part of it is male privilege. I don't, people aren't expecting me to be made up, but I could just change my tie and people think it's a different outfit. So that helps with travel too.

[00:22:45] Jess: Yeah. Okay. Cool story. And my last question is, what's your best advice for someone who wants to start speaking on stages? 

[00:22:56] Marc: I would say to start speaking, I. And I don't mean to be flip. what I've seen, I'm longtime member of the National Speakers Association. I have earned their highest earned designation with a certified speaking professional, which we could go into that if you want.

[00:23:10] Marc: my friend Cherry and Kohi looked at that and said, oh. That you actually had to work for that. Like they went back 20 years and were talking to past audience members and stuff. So the most of us volunteer at conferences. most conferences are looking for speakers. And a lot of the, in the nonprofit space, it's a lot of volunteer committees that are putting on the committee, the events.

[00:23:28] Marc: And so they are looking for good people and then they disband. So you don't get a lot of repeat work. But you, there's a lot of opportunity to try. and if you could also just start doing webinars as well, or podcasts, but I think on stage is volunteering and then having the guts to start saying, I'd like the conference registration.

[00:23:46] Marc: I, I'm, I am more than a free speaker. At some point you realize, okay, people are, I've got something to offer. And then you start increasing your fee, to, depending on your revenues goals. Some people have an amazing ability to speak for free and get. Get my, get clients from that. And so that could be totally legit.

[00:24:03] Marc: That wasn't my path. I wanted to pay mortgage bills with my speaking. and so I started, I remember it was Blackbaud was the first one that I said, Hey, look, this is not a benefit to me to speak at your conference that I wasn't planning on going to and I have to take days off for. so I asked for a whole $500 and, that felt like the wor like the.

[00:24:20] Marc: Scariest. My first major gift ask was for a hundred thousand dollars and that felt the 500 felt even scarier. but they said yes after much hemming and highing and, I was off to the races and so it's the fee's a little bit more than that now. 

[00:24:33] Jess: I hope so. Alright. Cool. You win. 

[00:24:36] Marc: Thanks for playing. Thank you.

 

[00:24:43] Jess: Okay, I wanna just stay on this a bit because the idea of a, like answering a phone number that I don't have you on my, it's never gonna happen. like it just, Sometimes I get in trouble even with my kids' school because they haven't programmed the right number. And I'll have a kid waiting for me and I'm I do not answer.

[00:25:01] Jess: and then coupled with the reality is that the, fundraising departments that you have been working with ongoingly for decades, staff turnover in our sector is what it all the time it is. And so I'm curious how. How you like, I respect the methodology or like the effort. And I'm curious just about the actual results.

[00:25:26] Jess: are you out of how many calls you make in a week? Like how many people are you actually getting on the phone? Yeah. And of the people you're talking on the phone, like how much of that actually translates into business? Because not everyone's like me. I know I might be like a bit of a weirdo that just It's actually, you can't even get me on my phone. It's not, there's no ringer. there's no buzzer. Like I might as well not have a phone, but most people are really attached to their phone or their, yeah. What's that? Watch you guys all have? I would be such a squirrel if I had one. I'm too. so I'm just curious like what the results are of that effort.

[00:25:57] Marc: Yeah. I wish I could know. I think it's a good question and I listened to you guys' episode on. Whatever air tables or air pockets or something, that, which is great. I'm wonderful. I don't know. Here's what I do know, and I learned this as a fundraiser, so much of what I do now in my business, I learned as a major care fundraiser.

[00:26:14] Marc: Part of what I know is when I'm making the random phone calls. People come in way down the funnel, outta left field, they'll be ready to buy. I got in a gig, I got an event next month, can you speak at it? Can you train with my board? Whatever, when I'm not making the phone calls, the left field stuff stop, dries up.

[00:26:33] Marc: And so for me, I don't know what the conversion rates are, what the methodology is, and I that's, so part of it is I just like the left field stuff coming in. So I try to do this other stuff. I also. I think it was in, early in my consulting, in my coaching, I was particularly like coaching.

[00:26:49] Marc: 'cause we can talk about that if you want, but my coaching, I realized it wasn't my, I wasn't responsible for their results or I wasn't responsible for getting them to do the work. and so that's the same with a phone call. I can only be responsible for dialing. I can't be responsible if they pick up.and I do try to track it in my system because I need the.

[00:27:11] Marc: it quiets the critic in my head of I'm actually doing the work. I'm not slacking, I'm baby stepping, I'm baby stepping, I'm doing this stuff.so for me it's, the tracking is very much so I can go back when I'm wake, when I'm in a sleepless night looking at myself thinking I'm just so lazy and look at, no, I just did tons of calls.

[00:27:29] Marc: Like this morning I did emails. I did over a hundred emails, individual emails, responding to something that I'm promoting. and, but it was still, and it was two hours. glad I had your podcast to listen to. Thank you. 

[00:27:40] Cindy: Okay. I love this conversation for so many reasons. one is, I think that's just like the old school, like disconnects with people.

[00:27:49] Cindy: Stuff we learn in fundraising, right? customize the emails, send the personal outreach, and you're focusing on something you have control over. So I was doing a presentation about where to find cl, like how to find clients. And so often we think of the funnel, right? We're taught it's the funnel.

[00:28:08] Cindy: But it's so much, it's so messy and it's not always this like clear line. And we try in today's marketers, and I try, right? okay, I'm running these ads, I can track who came in from that ad and da. But someone called it do y all know the show, the good place. Did you ever watch that? It's really good.

[00:28:27] Cindy: I've seen it. Yeah. Okay. It, Jess, you should watch it. there's a line, in it about Jeremy Bearimy which is like the, what is it? Like the purpose of life or like the meaning of life, and it's just like crazy weird signature. Anyways, it's the Jeremy Bearimy, which is you just have to put the work out there and it's not gonna be this like,

[00:28:51] Cindy: linear process of this is who I spoke to, it landed this client, et cetera. You focus on what you can control and trust that the universe is gonna take care of the rest. So I just really think that's such an important thing, especially with marketing these days where we can track like every single thing.

[00:29:12] Cindy: And there's a great, randomly, there's a great podcast, one of my favorite podcasts called Nudge. Phil Agnew has an episode where he talks to a guy who talks about like old school advertising and that it's not just about that like conversion. There's the brand awareness. Yeah. There's so many other.

[00:29:31] Cindy: Things that we don't and can't measure. So I really appreciate that. 

[00:29:34] Marc: So one thing I learned was, and I remember it, I, I was trying to do this, but it was Kimberly Miller who really put it in practice for me of, whenever I create a piece of content, I wanna be able to use it at least three ways. So a blog post, a post on social media, and maybe, training or a reel or a video. So I always try to do things that will have life beyond me. I try to, send out emails and know that they're, I see it very agriculturally. I'm planting seeds and I don't know which ones they're gonna catch. and, part of the challenge is also refining your focus, because,I have struggled with wanting to serve everybody.

[00:30:06] Marc: 'cause everybody, the nonprofit folks are so awesome and they have so much that they can do good for the world. And I don't want to niche down because I'm gonna exclude all these other people. But when I try to include everybody, nobody knows who I am or what I do. When I niche down, people can see me and then they can choose is Pitman someone I want to play with or not?

[00:30:26] Marc: And. No harm gonna file if they don't want to. But, and it gets more specific. I know the problems that a 42-year-old CEO has or a 62-year-old, nonprofit, CEO, he's looking about what do I want to do next? it, do I have enough to retire on? I don't want to be here anymore. I don't think I'll be the next executive director.

[00:30:43] Marc: so I can, I like niching 'cause I can create content more clearly. But, it's so hard 'cause it's, the niche kind of shifts and changes with your interests as well, and. I dunno if you guys have experienced that, but 

[00:30:54] Cindy: Yeah. Yeah. not me. So,okay. I just wanna underscore something you said and that brings me to, to my next question.

[00:31:04] Cindy: So I just love, like when you talked about the 62-year-old executive director who's I don't wanna do this, I don't want another gig after this. Like, how am I, like that clarity immediately conjured specific people in my mind where I'm like, I know five people like that. And that is a marketing goldmine.

[00:31:26] Cindy: Yes. Because as soon as someone can picture an actual person that is your ideal client, that's how you get referrals. That's how the Jeremy Bearimy daily phone calls works out because that you have that clarity which brings Yeah. 

[00:31:40] Marc: and I was just going through a, like a dryness of what do I write about, particularly with all the chaos that's going on, orchestrated chaos.

[00:31:45] Marc: I should say. that's going on. And, part of it, it was really helpful to go through another clarifying exercise of, here are the three types of people I wanna help. 

[00:31:52] Jess: Yeah. 

[00:31:52] Marc: What are their three problems? And out of that, what are three articles I could write to address each problem? And all of a sudden I had 27 articles.

[00:31:59] Marc: I had, for the first time in years, I'd had I could actually schedule out my emails and they'd be still relevant even though they were scheduled out a lot, a long time ago. 

[00:32:07] Cindy: Love that. Okay. That brings me to the joke of things change. We mainly, we often, oh, okay. to, like I have rebranded.

[00:32:18] Cindy: I've completely changed my business model. You have, I'm just kidding. Multiple times, right? So tell me like, do you have the same audience for your different. Sort of products, do you have multiple audiences? how have you managed that evolution as you've changed things over time? And I know like for your coaching leadership, like for the training you have that is.

[00:32:43] Cindy: I think a different audience. So tell us about that. 

[00:32:46] Marc: It isn't though, so that's the thing. Like internally and I just, at a year ago at 52, I got diagnosed with off the charts A DHD, which apparently was not a surprise to anybody that knows me, but it was a surprise to me. It explains some of the things.

[00:32:59] Marc: I can hold a lot of truths in my head. and one of them is I can see who I'm serving, but it gets really confusing for everybody else. Everybody I am just continue to be amazed at our ability as human beings to other ourselves, oh, that doesn't apply to me. Oh, that won't happen to me. Oh, that clearly isn't talking to me.

[00:33:19] Marc: so for me, it is it, I started out thinking it would be my first book was to board members because I figured there's one buyer. The executive director or the development director, and there are a dozen board members. So I could get a lot of books out there. I haven't seen that happen, but I was also hoping board members tend to be on other boards, so I was hoping it would cross pollinate.

[00:33:38] Marc: So one of my gifts or strengths in, the Gallup strengths finder is maximizer. I, my first book I took outta the BO Box and wrote Second edition and started making notes and it blew my dad away. He's A book is a bucket list item for people, and here you are already planning the next one. It's I didn't know Grissom until this third book, so why would I know why would people know me on my first?

[00:33:57] Marc: and Stephen Covey, it was his first book that nobody knew about. It was seven habits that people knew. So.the, I had, has knowing's been clear to me that I wanted to talk to leaders in organizations, nonprofits had the easiest problem to solve for me of fundraising. Revenue generation was an easy pro, not easy, but I under, I had an answer for that and I had verifiable track record credibility on my LinkedIn and in my background to deal with it.

[00:34:24] Marc: but what my, my, the people I like to serve, like I have a CEO advising that's really for tech. It tends to be, 40 ish, 42-year-old, tech c startup CEOs who have been in the business about 10 years, and they're wondering, how do I deal with this team? How do what, why are they not helping me, free me up to do the stuff I love to do?

[00:34:43] Marc: so that is not the nonprofit sector, but, so my advising is a little different, but like the coach, the leadership coach certification that I do, 50% of the time it's employees and each group is 50% employees and 50% consultants. Some of them are nonprofit, some of them are for, they tend to be nonprofit because that's where.

[00:35:01] Marc: Part of what I've realized is that's where I'm known the most. it is starting from scratch to try to get into, like I did some training for Michelin. I've done some trainings for some other multinational corporations, but it's still, that's still like I've had to prove myself each time.

[00:35:15] Marc: Where at there's more, at 20 years in more of a chance that people have heard me in the nonprofit space or heard of me even with the turnover, and that turnover is real. the, my list for the. Fundraising side is smaller. My email list, because of, I also purge it every six months to quarter to six months, because people leave and the email stay there and they become liabilities for me.

[00:35:37] Marc: yeah. 

[00:35:39] Jess: Yeah, that's so true. And a struggle for all of us out 

[00:35:42] Marc: there trying to maintain it. I wanted to struggle 'cause we're good people and we did double optin. Why are we doing penalized for people? Lack of opening. Come on. Yeah, 

[00:35:49] Jess: for sure. For sure. okay. I hope this question is okay. I always, I ask it of everyone, but I'm always surprised when people are like this.

[00:36:01] Jess: so my question for you is 15, 20 years from now, do you see yourself still? Doing this, these three channels, do you see an evolution happening or it's yet to be seen given the state of the world and the needs of the world? 

[00:36:20] Marc: Oh no. I'll still be doing this. I've always, ever wanted to speak to coliseums and help people be their best selves.

[00:36:25] Marc: I believe people are brilliant. I believe that they're incredibly gifted beyond what they can see themselves, and I love being. Given permission to help draw that out of them. So I will always be doing that. Emily, my wife is really good at that too. So we'll be speaking, we'll be writing books. I do not know if that'll be exclusively in the nonprofit sector.

[00:36:46] Marc: Okay. Because of the crossover. And then, we, what we alluded to before, part of the evolution is because of my consistency and building a. Coaching practice. So part of what I set out to do, I don't know if you guys have had this experience, but 25, 22 years ago when I got certified and as a coach, the only coaches that were making money, it seemed like were coaches, coaching coaches how to have coaching businesses, but they'd never had a practice themselves.

[00:37:09] Marc: It was like this weird Ponzi scheme. So I decided I wanted to have a coaching practice. I wanted to have individual consultants and coaches ask me, how do you do coaching? I wanted to have a coaching practice that paid the bills and then have consultants individually tell me, ask me, and then have a conference of consultants ask me, could you please train us?

[00:37:26] Marc: That happened in 2012, the conference, and that's when I realized, oh, now I can do a certification. And it took me about 10 years to figure out that certification. But, I see that as a bigger part of who I am going to be because it allows me to remove myself from stage and point to other brilliant people.

[00:37:45] Marc: the upshot of that is that Phil Jones, who's wrote a book called Exactly what to Say, that Sold Fabulously Around the World. Then a year ago asked me and my wife to, would you consider starting a coaching company for my brand? 'cause I don't wanna, I get asked about coaching, but I don't wanna manage coaching.

[00:38:02] Marc: That doesn't seem to be my best use of my talents. We've now figured out how to certify coaches and have a profit sharing revenue stream so that we can do that with them. And we're in the soft launch at the time of this recording. So I think there may be some helping other brands, people create coaching programs to help people.

[00:38:22] Marc: Actually, trainings are great, but it's hard to implement them in real life and coaching helps maximize that the investment in training. 

[00:38:30] Cindy: I'm so excited to see how that plays out for you. Me too. And I know it's so cool and I just love the openness to experimenting and seeing where things go and jumping on opportunities.

[00:38:44] Cindy: I made as a follow up to Jess's question, but it's something she and I have talked about with our peers, like our little mastermind, which is like. What's the end game like? Is this, are you building a business you wanna sell eventually? Are you building, is this a, I just wanted to, I never understood 

[00:38:59] Marc: that.

[00:39:00] Marc: Do you guys, are you guys I never understood building a business that I wanted to sell. And then I talked to a colleague a year and a half ago and I was Oh, so 

[00:39:07] Marc: does 

[00:39:07] Cindy: this, 

[00:39:08] Marc: I could sell parts. 

[00:39:09] Cindy: Yeah. Or this is a maybe, but does the business die when you die? do you know what I mean?

[00:39:13] Cindy: Like what, even if you don't like, sell it, Do you, have you thought about that? we don't, I don't have a good answer for myself, but Okay. yeah, because I'm 

[00:39:22] Marc: like, oh no, I'm gonna get graded on the test. So for me, part of it is I've, my books I think will live on beyond me.

[00:39:27] Marc: I write my books to, in order to do that and to be at a lower price point. So I didn't want to be the kind of person who said, you can't afford to hire me, you're outta luck. So I, the book was a way to give the best away and, if people want more, that's that. The I, my, I never understood, I didn't never, it never fit to me to think of do creating a business to sell, even though that's what I, the model of so much of what I studied was entrepreneur, the E-Myth revisited and that sort of stuff.

[00:39:55] Marc: but there are parts of fundraising coach that I could sell. right now it's, it is a personality brand. It's me. I have 20 years of writing, one of the longest blogs in this nonprofit sector. Six books on fundraising. and I've put that into a vector database to create a GPT and maybe do an I, if I'm going to sell it, maybe sell it as an i, kinda it, or tech play instead of a book of business, whatever that, I don't know what book of business means, but people like us are supposed to talk about that.

[00:40:22] Marc: But I can see, I, I don't know if there'll be anything left after us,honestly, I think the quadrant three leadership program has the legs to go the distance and I can see that's what Emily and I'll be doing for life. 'cause we just love helping nurture leaders and help nurture people that want to be their own self-employed bosses and all the scariness that is, when nobody else is writing the rules and nobody else is paying the checks.

[00:40:46] Marc: I was like, huh, what do we do? But I, so I don't have, my end game is to, to, I wanna be used up when I die. Yeah. That's part of my mission. and I want to be used, not burnt out, but used up. I want to have lived up to all the potential that was entrusted to me. 

[00:41:01] Cindy: I love that. I often think Who's buying these businesses, but that's a conversation.

[00:41:06] Cindy: and I've seen 

[00:41:06] Marc: some, I've seen some colleagues get into some business sales that were not as advantageous as they thought. yeah. and I've tried a partnership, before where people would be willing to not pay me anything for all the work I've done and profit off of it. And that didn't seem equitable.

[00:41:22] Marc: No. Or fair? 

[00:41:23] Marc: no. 

[00:41:23] Cindy: But like Cindy, like you sold your previous podcast? I sold the podcast, yeah. But that had oh, see. I know, but yay. But but that wasn't like your intention until it wasn't, yeah, exactly. Like I didn't build it for that. I, that was a consequence of my business changed, my focus changed.

[00:41:40] Cindy: And I knew someone who, yeah. I felt matched the ambition of This is how it could live on and serve her business. Yeah. And so it made sense, but I like, I don't, it wasn't a ton of money. It's not like a retirement plan. No. You know what I mean? that's how the 

[00:41:57] Marc: nonprofit academy happened. Chris, Kirsten Bullock started it and saw the way I was running, doing automations and doing database stuff.

[00:42:04] Marc: 'cause I am a tech nerd. And, it was, she realized that it was about two years.I, she was two year, she was two years behind where the academy needed For running and she didn't have the interest to keep maintaining it. Yeah. and so she sold it to me and yeah. She didn't, she might've bought some nice coffees or something, and, but it was, yeah.

[00:42:23] Marc: I'm with you. That's not really the play, but the podcast. To go back to Jess's question about audience, if anybody's listening to this and wondering, how do I get in front of my audience? I have found a podcast to be like catnip. the fact that we're all talking. Yeah. So my podcast was never to build an audience.

[00:42:39] Marc: It was always to get an entry entree into the My Best prospects. So my last podcast was two seasons of talking to executive directors of nonprofits about leadership, what they loved, what they, when they failed, and what they did to recover from the fail. Three questions, 15 minutes, shorter commute.

[00:42:56] Marc: And I got to hear how people were currently talking about the problems that are. The same problems that we've been having, but there are different spins on it, different perspectives, different wording. And I was able to stay relevant with the people that I was then talking with in other aspects and had something to offer them.

[00:43:12] Marc: I missed that, but. And I may come back to it, but, yeah, I 

[00:43:15] Cindy: was gonna say maybe another one soon. 

[00:43:16] Marc: what happened was the book launched for not surprising Gift of Doubt. My wife was like, you're gonna be insufferable on launch day. Why don't, she didn't quite say it that way, but she did.

[00:43:25] Marc: she said, why don't you interview? There's a, a great leader, Nadia Bolts Weber, who interviewed a person every hour on the hour during the election day. 'cause she's I already voted. I can't do anything about this. This is a while back. And,her list was like the Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Brene Brown.

[00:43:42] Marc: I had a different list to draw on, but I did two days of those interviews and then I had these, my daughter was a Twitch mod for a Twitch stream or something, and so I got this really fancy animation thing and a side by. Side e cam, side by side interview thing. So I had this really high production value and it freaked me out 'cause I couldn't match it on a weekly basis.

[00:44:03] Marc: So now that I'm about four years away from it, maybe it's time for me to do the small, minimum viable startup of hanging out on Zoom, talking with friends, which is what I love. 

[00:44:11] Cindy: Yeah, it's the most fun. 

[00:44:13] Marc: Yeah, 

[00:44:13] Cindy: it really is. Okay. We could talk forever 

[00:44:17] Marc: and we should, 

[00:44:18] Cindy: but we can't. so to wrap up the conversation, of course we're gonna ask you to share a confession.

[00:44:26] Marc: All right. we, I'm part of the National Speakers Association and so one of my confessions I realized was gonna sound like a real jerky thing to say. So there's some people that will say things like, I had this seven figure or eight figure income in mind and I only made seven figures and it's like this fake confession.

[00:44:43] Marc: So I won't share that one. but, I don't, I'm not really good with money. Like I'm really good at bringing it in, but I'm not really, and I don't like to say that 'cause I don't like to speak pot negatively about myself. But, so I'm growing. I figured 20 years in I'd have a better, forecast of my revenue streams and I still feel like I'm not having that.

[00:45:03] Marc: the structure of the new business, the partnership seems like that all provides some more of that, but, It's still 20, 22 years in. I would never trade my life for, I'm so grateful for the risks that we've taken in life we've chosen, but it is still a hard slog. every sale you have to earn.

[00:45:19] Marc: It's not, it's not the whole passive revenue thing, is a myth to sell. Complete 

[00:45:23] Cindy: lie. Complete lie. Yeah, because 

[00:45:25] Marc: it's, you have to active to make it passive, so it's not passive. 

[00:45:28] Jess: Yeah. passive, but recurring. Recurring, yes. Recurring. Cindy and I are big fans of that recurring, oh, I 

[00:45:34] Marc: love recurring.

[00:45:34] Marc: And so even though it's like that book I did in 2008, I'm still getting paid for. People still buy it. So it could be just cents on the dollar, but it still boosts me. So I think the confession is sometimes I would love to just be a home brewer, like I am a home brewer, but I'd love to just throw it all out and just brew my own beer or find a patron.

[00:45:51] Marc: There was a period of time I was looking for a patron that could just like, in medieval times, just pay me to be a good person and do creative things. I'd probably get upset with him like I or her, like I did with all my bosses. Every 18 months or so, I'd get really upset with the boss and I'd have to find a new job.

[00:46:05] Cindy: I think that's a really interesting idea, but also I think it would be really hard to make happen. 

[00:46:10] Jess: Yeah. 

[00:46:11] Cindy: and yeah, I, if we had more time, I'd love to unpack that because I think that some of that is just entrepreneurship. but there's clearly yeah. Anyways, that, so have to, can I take my bad humble brag?

[00:46:22] Cindy: Yeah. Okay. So my humble brag confession was. 

[00:46:25] Marc: The my first a hundred thousand dollars month. I thought it was the new normal, and so I felt like it was, I paid off my kids' first year of college. I did all this other stuff and it, there was, it was predicated on a year's worth of service and so I hadn't really parsed out like that's not a hundred.

[00:46:42] Marc: Yeah. And that was my, you, 

[00:46:43] Cindy: that's like over 12 months. Really? Yeah. 

[00:46:45] Marc: That and. It was my only a hundred thousand dollars month to date. So that was a few years ago. But boy, that felt great. I felt like I'd arrived and I know that there are people that would say, see the receipts? I made a hundred thousand dollars last month, and that.

[00:46:58] Jess: Yeah. But 

[00:46:59] Marc: yeah, I spent, it was, I bought everybody cocktails at this soay we were at and yeah, I'd love to be rich 'cause I love giving and, it, that's still is something that I, Is it to be determined, and one day who scale maybe? I don't know. Yeah, 

[00:47:14] Cindy: love it. maybe you'll have another one of those months.

[00:47:17] Cindy: One time I get 

[00:47:19] Marc: there, I have had good advisors and I have a current advisor that is helping me to make decisions that are in addition to Emily. Emily is amazing with money, but also there are helping me make decisions that are conducive to at least. Choosing if we're not gonna retire, but we'd like to have some money at the end.

[00:47:36] Marc: Oh yeah. There's that. Yeah. But our kids are getting outta college and so it's almost woo. Yeah. I, all of a sudden I realized when I was trying to buy a car got totaled during a training. So I had to buy a carb with base, just what the insurance covered was. And it was really funny 'cause I realized, wait.

[00:47:51] Marc: When the insur, the tuition bills stop, we could be buying a car a semester. This is amazing. My business is used to producing enough income to supply this kind of expenditure. This is great. So you're almost there. Almost there. Year and a half. 

[00:48:10] Jess: Alright, mark. Oh, go for Cindy. There we go. That's so mean ourselves.

[00:48:17] Jess: So we're not talking weird tell to find people. Where can they be in touch, follow along. 

[00:48:23] Marc: Wow. I try to be ridiculously easy to find. So if you'd Google Marc or perplexity Mark. A Pitman Mark with a C. Pitman with one TP as in Peter, ITMN. You'll, you should find me. I'm on LinkedIn the most. I really am enjoying threads, which.

[00:48:38] Marc: Makes me a little nauseous because it's a meta company, but whatever. and I'm on, so LinkedIn but also con, concord leadership group.com and fundraising coach.com as well. 

[00:48:49] Jess: Nice. Thank you so much and good blast. Thank you. We'll have you to have you back.



cindy wagman
Next

"This Isn't What I Want": How Brittny Wilson Built a Recruitment Agency from Scratch