It's a Wrap! Why Sometimes You Have To Kill What You Love
After hundreds of episodes and countless conversations, Jess and Cindy are making one of the hardest business decisions: ending Confessions (for now). But this isn't just a goodbye episode - it's a masterclass in strategic decision-making and knowing when to let go of something you love for the sake of your business.
In this candid conversation, they pull back the curtain on how they made this decision, why "it's fun" isn't always enough of a business reason, and how regular business evaluations led them to this crossroads. From Cindy's pivot to fractional work to the reality that successful consultants still face doubt and struggle, this episode is packed with real talk about business evolution.
Whether you're holding onto something in your business that's no longer serving you or wondering how to make tough strategic decisions, this conversation will give you permission to choose growth over comfort.
Highlights:
Regular business audits are non-negotiable. What worked 12 months ago might not align with where your business is headed today.
"It's fun" isn't always enough. If something doesn't serve your business goals, it might be time to let it go - even if you love it.
Your business should evolve with you. Cindy's shift from general nonprofit consulting to fractional specialization shows how niching down can clarify everything.
Everyone struggles, even the "successful" people. Comparison truly is the thief of joy, and behind every confident consultant is someone who still has moments of doubt.
Thanks for being part of this journey with us. Keep doing the important work - the sector needs you. ❤️
🎧 What's next? Connect with Jess at Building Better Together (buildingbettertogether.co) and follow Cindy's fractional work at nonprofitfractional.com/fracture
Timestamp summary:
[03:00] The Hard Decision "We decided that we're going to wrap up indefinitely for now... it was a really hard decision, which is why we wanted to dedicate an episode to it."
[04:00] Kill Your Darlings "We often talk about like kill the darlings, right? Like, what are you doing in your business that's not actually moving the needle or serving your business? And these are the hardest decisions to make."
[06:00] When Your Business Evolves "Over the last year, I've really niched down to focus almost pretty much exclusively on fractional nonprofits in the nonprofit sector. And with that, this podcast doesn't really make sense as like part of my marketing."
[07:00] The "It's Fun" Test "She was like, well, what do you wanna achieve? What are your goals with this podcast? And I was like, it's fun... And I'm like, wait, that's not a business answer."
[09:00] Joy vs. ROI "Not every single thing you do in your business needs to have a strong ROI, in my opinion. Like you gotta have some joy in your business and your life."
[11:00] Keep Going Despite the Challenges "2025 has been a hard year. 2024 was a weird fucking year... keep going. The world, like our sector has always been fucked up. That's not new."
[12:00] Everyone Still Struggles "Comparison is such a thief of joy... every single person other than that one has moments of doubt, struggle. It's hard what maybe they show up online is not really what's happening behind the scenes."
[14:00] Quick Action Takers "How grateful I am that both you and I are quick action takers... when we decided to start this, we like started it fast, got to work, and then when we decided to end it, we are ending it."
[17:00] The Ego vs. Strategy Balance "The ego part of me is like loving that... it feels really good, but also knowing that just 'cause it feels good and it is... genuinely helpful for a lot of people."
[24:00] Final Thanks "Thanks to all of our listeners... and of course our guests who we would not have been able to do this without them. And their openness and sharing and generosity, like vulnerability."
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching: cindywagman.com
Fractional Work: nonprofitfractionals.com/fracture
LinkedIn: ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: outintheboons.me
Building Better Together buildingbettertogether.co
TRANSCRIPT:
Cindy: [00:00:00] But over the last year, I've really niched down to focus almost pretty much exclusively on fractional nonprofits in the nonprofit sector. And with that, this podcast doesn't really make sense as like part of my marketing. It's fun. I
Jess: love doing it. Do we sometimes have fractional people come on this show and talk about their business?
Jess: Absolutely. Yeah. Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman. And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived.
Jess: To see what sticks. We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure [00:01:00] mark. By pulling back the curtain,
Cindy: whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own to. Or you've been running your consulting business four years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different.
Cindy: We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know the people who truly
Jess: get it. No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a success. Full nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like.
Jess: Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.[00:02:00]
Cindy: You ready? Let's go. Hey, Jeff. Hi, Cindy. Hello, podcast listeners. This a different episode than normal because we have some new. I wanna say it's exciting news, but actually don't think people are gonna be
Jess: very excited before we like share, maybe we set the stage. So as y'all know, Cindy and I traveled to see each other at least two times a year in person via our peer mastermind.
Jess: So we were just in Montreal, which for those who've never been Montreal, not Montreal, excuse me, we could have a whole debrief on that at a different. Time and place. But anyways, we were together. And a lot of what we're doing in these moments when we're talking as a group is coming up with ideas, but also axing ideas and really evaluating things that are moving the [00:03:00]needle in our business and giving some tough love advice to one another around things that are no longer serving our businesses.
Jess: And so with that.
Cindy: We decided that we're going to wrap up indefinitely for now. Yeah, so it was a really hard decision, which is why we wanted to dedicate an episode to it and also hopefully show behind the scenes of like how we think about these things. Because I think like we, for. Years now, we often talk about like kill the darlings, right?
Cindy: Like, what are you doing in your business that's not actually moving the needle or serving your business? And these are the hardest decisions to make. But when we think about what we're saying no to, so that we can say yes to other things or the priorities, it just, sometimes the hard things need to get done.
Cindy: And I think we. Like [00:04:00] even further back, we were very much inspired by the book 10 X is easier than two x. And then we read another book. Some of us read for this last mastermind that wasn't great, but basically it was like, yeah, what are you doing that's extra? And I think when we started this podcast, it.
Cindy: Stands for our businesses. I know for me, it made sense for my business and Well, and it filled
Jess: a void, right?
Cindy: Yeah. '
Jess: cause at the time when we started this, there was no place. For consultants to go. I mean, if we're being totally truthful, there's still not a ton of resources, but there is more than there were.
Jess: And at this point, there's hundreds of episodes we've recorded, so there's also a catalog. So if anyone is just catching this, I'm assuming this will just live on the internet or something and people can binge as they want. One thing that you said to me about a different thing when we were in Montreal [00:05:00]was how even a year ago things were really different, like how this did still really make sense for specifically your business and how just 12 months later that's even changed.
Jess: And so how, I guess I just want us to really talk through that and bring to light that. Evaluating your business at several points in every year is important because what's good for you right here and now might be a totally different situation six or 12 months down the line. And I think what's really empowering about being a business owner is that you can change your mind.
Cindy: Yes. Not even that. You can change your mind. That you should change your mind as you learn more, as you get better at things, you have more information, you can revisit your decisions. So all like basically what's changed for me over the last 12 months is my business a year ago and even when we started Confessions like I was.
Cindy: Really [00:06:00] focused on being a consultant for consultant in the nonprofit sector. And that was pretty broad in general, and I had a couple different offerings, but over the last year, I've really niched down to focus almost pretty much exclusively on fractional nonprofits in the nonprofit sector. And with that.
Cindy: This podcast doesn't really make sense as like part of my marketing. It's fun.
Jess: I love doing it. Do we sometimes have fractional people come on this show and talk about their business? Absolutely. Yeah.
Cindy: And one of the other triggers is we transitioned to a new podcast manager recently and she asked me, I don't, Jesse don't even know this.
Cindy: I typically handle a lot of the operations of the podcast, which is not actually that much, but I've the like editing and operations and it has always [00:07:00] been housed under my dose. So we're onboarding this new project manager, Rosa. Shout us Rosa. She was like, well, what do you wanna achieve? What are your goals with this podcast?
Cindy: And I was like, it's fun.
Jess: Totally.
Cindy: And I'm like, wait, that's some business answer. And so that also was a bit of a aha moment where I was just like, okay, my focus now really is so niche. I did start a private podcast for my fractional work called Fracture, and I. Made it a private podcast because it's also a lead gen for me.
Cindy: So I collect people's email addresses in order for them to be able to access the podcast. And it has a different function in my business as opposed to like just general thought leadership around general nonprofit consulting.
Jess: Yeah, I think that's like [00:08:00] really mature of you and of us. And I also, I just imagine people like listening to this.
Jess: Might think this is such a, you know, but honestly, when like we were talking about it, it was so simple and clear and easy. And I think that also just speaks to how this is the right decision for right now. And you and I are not people who have a ton of just extra time in our day, whether we're running our businesses or doing all the other things that are demanded of us.
Jess: As moms, as partners, as just like people who need alone time. And so I think really looking through and evaluating things that we like that make us feel good, which I actually think, not to complicate the point we're trying to make, but. I really do think it's a case by case basis because not every single thing you do in your business [00:09:00] needs to have a strong ROI, in my opinion.
Jess: Like you gotta have some joy in your business and your life.
Cindy: Well, it doesn't have to sit within your business Totally. Team things you, yes. Like you should have hobbies and other things like that. But yeah, I hope that it's a yes and where you can conserve the business and be fun. That's the goal, right?
Cindy: Yeah. Yeah. And that if it's not. Fun. But serving the business, I would try to find ways to make it more fun and if it's just fun and not serving the business, I do think it's a darling. I think it's like something that maybe it's time to evaluate.
Jess: And I think that's the whole thing. It's called Evaluate for a Reason.
Jess: Yes. And so, yeah, that's our news. I'm wondering, before we like leave, if we should talk about anything like we learned or advice we would give, whether it's like about a podcast or. [00:10:00] Or just like making a decision like this. Does anything come to mind?
Cindy: Yeah, well, things that I think we've learned over the last, however many episodes I should know.
Cindy: That's why I can't remember how many episodes I've done is that like everyone's business is different. And there are certain business models like fractional or like interim work or things like that where there's like a playbook, but at the end of the day, your business is your business. You make decisions and you add your little flare to it.
Cindy: And so that's really, I think one of the things we set out to find out how people are running things in the backend. And I think it really just. Reinforce that kind of hypothesis, that like there's lots of ways to do things and there's ways to be successful. One of the other things that we recently talked about that I think is worth kind of a nice way to wrap things up is, you know, we're recording this.
Cindy: It's August of [00:11:00] 2025. 2025 was been a hard year. 2024 was a weird fucking year. And one of the things that we've been seeing, and this is maybe like a message to all of you, is keep going. The world, like our sector has always been fucked up. Mm-hmm. That's not new. So maybe we're actually better equipped to handle this than anyone else.
Cindy: Mm-hmm. And let's focus on what we can control. Yeah. How we show up and keep doing the really important work that we're doing.
Jess: I love those. I think one thing that's been really consistently. Evident through all the hundreds of conversations we've had is how comparison is such a thief of joy and honestly, folks listening, even people who are perceived to be like big and mighty and killing it and earning all this revenue perhaps on our dear friend LinkedIn [00:12:00] are not.
Jess: I don't even mean are not, but they still might have the internal or mental struggle. The questions, the doubt that is so normal and should be expected no matter how long you've been doing it. I feel like we have yet to meet someone. I can think of one person that we interviewed that I was like, so has this ever been hard?
Jess: Did this just like work out magically and I won't even name any. Identifiers, but every single person other than that one like has moments of doubt, struggle. It's hard what maybe they. Show up online is not really what's happening behind the scenes. And I just wanna say that if you fall into that category, that's really normal.
Jess: That's totally okay. And I think just having like your eyes forward on what you're [00:13:00] doing is, like what Cindy said, is really all that matters because your business is not the same as someone else's business.
Cindy: Yeah, I think that point, like there's ups and downs, they call it seasons, you know, whatever you wanna call it.
Cindy: I think that that's just such a part of doing the work. Yeah. And brings us back to the very first point we made, which is your business will evolve and change, and that's. Often a really good thing because it means you are learning and you are adapting to what your clients need and what, and the changes in the environment and all that.
Cindy: So change can be very hard for people. But strategic change, if you can definitely embrace it and do what you can to evolve and grow and challenge yourself and have fun while you do it.
Jess: Question when you're just talking right now. I guess one of the things I'm just thinking of is like [00:14:00] how grateful I am that both you and I are quick action takers.
Jess: For example, when we decided to start this, we like started it fast, got to work, and then when we decided to end it, we are ending it. And 'cause I think a lot of people would've been like, I'll carry this out through the year I'll, and it's actually, we had some podcasts guests scheduled. We just. Let them know that, hey, we're not recording anymore.
Jess: We're now announcing it to you. Like, and there is a saying like something about what did like Mark Zuckerberg or what's the motto at Meta Move Fast and break things. Oh yeah. Motto. But I don't know if we're we're suggesting that. But what we are saying is we together had probably been thinking about it separately.
Jess: We came together in person, we made the decision, and then we took action and. That is going to be, I think, a lot more cost effective, mental load effective. All the things effective than dilly ding [00:15:00] and or could you imagine if one of us was like not willing to bring it up or like
Cindy: Yeah, and that's other piece is I think like our ability, 'cause I've seen a huge variety of experiences people have in partnering or mm-hmm.
Cindy: Being with either business partners or just like other businesses that they collaborate with. And like even I was like a little bit not nervous to have the conversation about winding things down, but like that,
Jess: yeah, because like we're friends like, and we always get to chit chat a little bit and catch up and just see each other and Yeah.
Jess: Totally.
Cindy: I love this. So for me, that was also a little. It was hard, but I think just not sitting on it for too long and just bringing it up quickly. Well, and it so
Jess: organically came up. Yeah. Because again, the whole weekend we're like, is this not just this [00:16:00] particular product? Right. But like we're all evaluating, all six or seven of us are like all evaluating what needs to be let go of and what makes sense and what doesn't make sense.
Jess: So it was, I think a really like natural, organic way. Yeah. To like. Address it. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't make it like not sad. Think back to Icon. We had confessions, so like the most epic booth we'd gotten to meet so many incredible consultants like you listening and intimately ask you questions about your business, which is such an honor.
Jess: We've made so many friends.
Cindy: Uh, I really. I feel so grateful for this that we've done together. And again, for all the listeners, like I, it again, this is why it's so hard to end these things because I get unsolicited comments like, I love this podcast. It's been so helpful. [00:17:00] It happened today. I just said it to Cindy as we're like about to record.
Cindy: I was like the one justice thing in our praises,
Jess: which is so kind.
Cindy: And the ego part of me is like pacing that I, that is, it feels really good, but also knowing that just 'cause it feels good and it is. The other hard thing is it helped, like it is genuinely helpful for a lot of people. Hopefully this also creates opportunity for other people who been humming on hin and maybe they're listening to this and they're like, I can step into that or I can do this too.
Cindy: So there's so much room in our sector. For conversations, open, honest, transparent conversations. And I think there's increasing, like there's an increasing number of resources available for that. So yeah, hopefully we're not leaving everyone. Right.
Jess: Yeah. And honestly, is that really a responsibility? Like it's not, but eldest daughter caretakers in us.
Jess: We have to like [00:18:00] tattoo that on our foreheads, but it's not. But I do agree that there's a lot more resources available to folks compared to when we first launched this, which was why we launched this. So I think, yeah, and if you are listening and you are, especially in the fractional space, like head on over to that conversation because that one is tailored specifically towards you.
Jess: Yeah. And I feel like so many people listening. Star of that.
Cindy: Yeah. Domain. Domain. This is a good opportunity to tell people where they can find us in our communities outside of this podcast. So I feel like most people listening are members of BB, C, but Jess, if they're not, we Yes. I'm still, I'm still
Jess: building pattern together.
Jess: No, we're almost at 200 members, which is just wild. And. I have made it quite the scavenger hunt to join the program.
Cindy: Where's [00:19:00]
Jess: the thel? Like, uh, what is Thel? No, it should be Building Better Together. Dot co is the website, and there's a lot of great communities. Our, we have lots of friends that run great communities, and so finding the one that's good for you.
Jess: So, for example, our friend Camila has a wonderful community. Lauren runs a great community called C 4G. They're out there and so depending on like your vibe and what you're looking for, Cindy has an amazing community, especially for fractional folks. So yeah, there again, when we started this, what, three years ago, two and a half, three years ago, there just wasn't, and like now there, there is, so the no one's high and dry
Cindy: building better together.co.
Jess: Yeah, I just check
Cindy: that. Well, I, yes it is that Daley, if you are a nonprofit consultant, it's a great community with a very affordable fee. You've heard us talk about it before, though. These [00:20:00] conversations are happening there all the time. If you're fractional, my podcast called Fracture is available@nonprofitfractional.com slash fracture.
Cindy: It is private saying you need to leave your email address to access it, but it is all things fractional, so you will see that from me going forward. All things fractional. Yeah. I will live and breathe this, at least for the next few years until the next evolution happens. My friend, our friend Rakesh told me when I told him I was kind of rebranding, that's also coming up.
Cindy: I was like, yeah, I'm rebranding. He's like, you're like Madonna, your business like Madonna, like constantly reinventing itself. So I was like, I'll take that. Yeah, that's a good compliment.
Jess: Yeah, that's a great compliment. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So many questions about that. As someone who's literally never done a rebrand, not a once different folks, different strokes, but.[00:21:00]
Jess: I've had a sneak peek at what Cindy is doing. It's really, first of all, it's gorgeous and fun. And when are you planning to like announce that? Yeah, so like
Cindy: officially September 15th, but we're starting to roll things out early September, which is when this will air. So you can go to nonprofit fractionals.com and there's some place folders where you can meet a peek at at what is coming up.
Cindy: But my goal with that is A, to sort of like really focus on fractional to also put a little bolder and a little bit more fun. And so I'm probably swear a little bit more online and make bold statements and just cut out through the bs.
Jess: Yeah. Thank God I've been finding it so sterilized lately. Yeah. I just so sterilized and.
Jess: Yeah. It's just another [00:22:00] point of like, why I'm sad about this because like when you have, when you're producing the content, when you're starting the conversations, you have a bit more control over that. And we don't need to start every conversation. We don't need to control everything as hard as it might be.
Jess: But I, I know, I look forward to you showing up and showing that side and just. Being that kinda like real for fractional folks. Especially because yeah, like our sector isn't boring. Like we can be cool. It's just sometimes we really make it tough out there.
Cindy: Oh, we do. But I think that's the other thing with like your community and other communities, I really do feel like there's this sort of, I'm say new wave, but I hate that term 'cause it reminds me of like eighties new wave music.
Cindy: But this sort of new. Generation implies age, but we'll say generation of consulting where it's, again, it is more fun. It is a little bit like people are showing up [00:23:00] differently around their ambition and playing and experimenting in the sector and trying new things. So I'm really excited for watching where all that ends up.
Jess: And you. Cindy and I hang out on LinkedIn. We love celebrating wins, and so as we go forward, not in your earbuds, we hope to stay connected in whatever we make sense. Yeah, guys, keep in touch. Yeah,
Cindy: that's it. Oh my goodness. It feels so weird to say a final goodbye, or at least final for now, but yeah, it's been such a joy.
Cindy: It's been a real one. Yeah, and thanks to all of our listeners. Hanging out with us, and of course our guests who we would not have been able to do this without them. And their openness and sharing and generosity, like vulnerability. And these are the [00:24:00] qualities that I think have made it just so, such a joy and pleasure.
Cindy: So thanks for letting us indulge in that. Thanks everyone. Until some other time. Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can join your
Jess: support in one of three ways. Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile.
Jess: And text Cindy and I so we can repost you. Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant. And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners. And
Cindy: of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews
Jess: as they drop.
Jess: Every Thursday and to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions. See you next [00:25:00] time.